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To use the lawyerly term, Art, I think we’ve arrived at irreconcilable differences. There’s no question we are both looking at the same thing with the same intense devotion, earnestness, and aspiration; but our sense of it is so very different. If anything, this discussion proves the infinitude of God, the enormity, the mercy, the forgiveness, the beauty, and the love – and the wisdom! – of the very One.

So, with thanks for a great ride, I leave this thread with an observation from Carl Shurz, the nineteenth century American general, journalist, politician, etc.: “Ideals are like stars; you will not succeed in touching them with your hands. But like the seafaring man on the desert of waters, you choose them as your guides, and following them you will reach your destiny”.

I'm sorry to see it end, Stefan. I agree that we will probably not achieve a resolution of our different viewpoionts, but then, I never expected that our dialog had that end as a goal -- only that we should share our varied viewpoints so as to understand each other better.

In any case, there is a love betwen us that comes not from any agreement in philosophy, but from the very nature of the One, and I will look forward to sharing with you and Nancy as dear friends in the future.

Shalom aleichem
Art

Art, you wrote, "there is a love betwen us that comes not from any agreement in philosophy, but from the very nature of the One, and I will look forward to sharing with you and Nancy as dear friends in the future".

Here, too, I agree absolutely! Nothing that has transpired in this thread or anywhere else could detract in any way from the affection we have for both of you. As you say, that transcends stuff ... stuff of any kind.

So, then, what do we gain from exchanging ideas? In particular, what do we gain by discussion with seemingly opposing perspectives? DO we gain anything, or is it an exercise in "I know more than you", or "I'm the king of the castle, and you're the dirty rascal?" (Remember that game - where you climbed to the top of a hill, and yelled out that chant when you got to the top and fought off any intruders who wanted to replace you, who, when they did, chanted the same mantra? - Kids are incredible, they say so much about human nature, without saying much.)

Anyway - there is a wise old man who once stated, if you listen carefully, you will find the answer to your statement, question, inquiry, whatever, within the question, statement, inquiry, whatever. So there IS something to be gained by the exchange of conflicting ideas, and that may very well be the lesson that we learn individually, (not collectively), by simply positing a question. In other words, as we instruct others, we are actually instructing ourselves. And within any discussion, there is, inevitably, instruction toward ourselves, in the hope of turning others to our way of thinking.

The amazing thing of it is that we seldom convince others to see things in our perspective, though it may appear to our own minds that we do, but instead, we hone and transform our own consciousness by virtue of that effort. Or, said another way, it is the friction that is created by interaction between humans that creates living consciousness and thereby, by extension, the world we each individually inhabit.

Well said!
namaste

So, then. The conclusion one must inevitably come to, if this position is valid, is that, when one finds the answers to all of one's questions, that one ceases to question, indeed, finds it increasingly difficult to discuss or carry on dialogue other than "What is for lunch", and "how are you today!".

Perhaps we can then gauge our own progress by how much we question, how much we discuss, how much we argue.

Certainly, simply logically speaking, the more we understand, the less we question. And perhaps, indeed, probably, those who are certain of the anwers to life's questions, are those who speak the least, and probably, teach the least, at least in a formal or dialogue type manner. This juxtaposes radically from the person who speaks vociferously about what that person is certain about. I would suggest, based on this position, that the adamant and more vocal individual, who is certain of her position, but insists upon convincing others, is NOT certain of her position, but is still "trying it out" on others, in an effort to convince herself.

On the other hand, of course, there are what we call boddhisatvas, or saints, that perceive their ONLY function to be to instruct others toward a way out of their dilemma, and sacrifice their silence and peace toward that goal of relieving others from their own suffering. However, most of those individuals, if history is any indicator, are pretty silent, relatively speaking, and instead just LIVE as an example of their "teaching".

I suppose in Truth:) One is only ever ultimately talking, sharing, praying with or to "One" self, whereby, there is no real need for external communication! One walks their talk through being!A little like, being a candle or the mirror that reflects the light!

iamDiane wrote: One walks their talk through being!

Oh, I like that very much!

A propos to the thread of this discussion, I just read an interesting, but extremely detailed book entitled "The Sound of Two Hands Clapping", which is an autobiography of a westerner who lived in Dharmasala with Tibetan monks for 15 years. (Let me add here, however, that the autobiographical portion is very small, and the historical portion of the method of teaching within Tibetan monasteries VERY large - too large for my particular preferences! But it is informative.) Anyway, the emphasis within most Tibetan monasteries is on didactics, scholasticism, and a process that they call debate....who would have thought?! They have ritual, meditation, and all the rest of it, but from this author's perspective, at least, the emphasis seems to be on thought, learning, and a dialogue with others to reach understanding, and ultimately, what they call nirvana, and what we would call Realization. (Realization in this case being knowing who we are.)

So, again, there comes another very ancient discipline which encourages questioning and "argument" in order to arrive at answers within. I pick this particular discipline because it is so old, and thus, so well practiced over the years, that this alone should testify to the usefulness of dialogue. While I admit age itself doesn't necessarily signify "truth", it often does.

Compare this approach to that of the more structured and authoritarian disciplines or religions, and I at least, come away with a preference for the less authoritarian ones BECAUSE they encourage, indeed require, self-discipline and introversion in order to arrive at answers. I am always suspicious of those organizations that insist that one not think, one not question, but take everything "on faith". This opens the door to huge abuses by unscrupulous teachers, who usurp the purity of the initial teaching given out by the original teacher, scew it to meet their own biases, and then tell their listeners to accept this interpretation "on faith". Terrible way to use the human mind, and excellent way to accumulate power. Not mention it often encourages laziness within the followers, and a hubris and egocentricity wrapped up in God's vestments. (Not always, but I have encountered too many examples of this "I am saved, and you are not" throughout the world of religions, to make me believe otherwise.)

Of course, that said, there is a place and a time for authoritarian religions, because without some kind of moral direction, humankind , in its propensity to selfishly take, and not give, would end up in chaos (of course, we are close to that already, so perhaps it is not as effective as I propose?!) So I am not throwing out the baby with the bath water, there is need for structure and hierarchy. What I am saying, however, is that as one crawls up from the mud to the heavens, there is an evolution of consciousness, or perhaps better said, an expansion of consciousness, that requires, demands, needs, must have, access to internal answers that fit into the puzzle of the external appearances. Otherwise, we would all go mad.....maybe that is why so many of us humans are on the very cusp of going mad? (I remember Gurdjieff stating that his students were unable early on to see the madness of humankind around them, but as they progressed, they would be appalled at the madness that actually does exist about them......too true. You don't need to be a student of Gurdjieff to reach that conclusion.)

This is too depressing, I think I'll go outside and garden.

"Gardening" what an excellent example of "Being"
Great stuff., giving up working it out & Being it in action is innately fullfilling!
I am inclined to agree, & feel that authoritarian disciplines, religions, dogma of any kind, rules, regulations, preferred practises, rights & wrongs are but another example of ones "Individual" perception of what TRUTH represents for them & also is accompanied with a "seperatness" mentality or identity & hence developes a book of rules, business or organization, regulations of the right or only way to "GOD" Buddha" or Self" & external worship! If there is no-thing outside of One-Self, who is one following or worshipping!

It Is incredible how we, still manage to continue to create our own sufferring., it seems as though the more external information we get, the further we are from the true nature of All that is!
How often does one tend to feel "depressed" I have discovered that this feeling primarily surfaces or appears to be whilst trying to intellectually understand, or work things out, disect information, make things sit or fit right with oneself. Right or wrong co-exist! in the material reality!
Not in the soul! or the authentic nature! the source of Being, has no questions, fears, lacks, judgments or doubt!

Whereby, this process of trying to work things out, study, or continually gather knowledge, can only be based or founded on Past, history, experiences, conditioning & ancient beliefs & practises!
All of which have led humanity to where it consciously has evolved to NOW.

The silent cry of all humanity is the same & loudly resonates a universal tune "Who Am I" where do I fit in, what makes me tick, where did I come from, what's it all about & inevitably which is the right or fastest way that works or to get there! hence, creating a state of mind! determined by external input!

However, I have also come to realize, that "Being" has no need to do, say, learn, interpret, or understand anything based on external input!
"All knowing" is the natural authentic nature of ALL that is within! the force or source of "Being"
Hence, nowhere to go, no-thing to do or be-come!
"Being" in the moment, all that one is, no past, no future, without judgment, can & does elicits "Self" Realization of All that One Self Is! encompassing All That Is!

I feel there has been is much shared wisdom in all the masters prior to US, that highlight the stepping stones to a natural process of developing heightened awareness & inevitably consciousness.

Each step or recognized master, such as many different examples that would be known to us all prior to Buddha, and many of whom have not been unmentioned or recorded as enlightened human beings. Many, who attained and still are attaining the divine plan of heightening humanity's level of awareness & inevitable natural process of enlightenment:
Also, subsequently the most recent & recognised master "Jesus" who's message, of conscious manifested energy on the (perceived) earth plain, has taken two thousand years for human beings to begin to innately understand,. the real meaning (truth) & expression of his life experience. Which. by the way, I am inclined to believe & discern, was an intricate part of divinly planned evolution process of humanity as such: Jesus, "Being" and reflecting a catalasymic message of profound wisdom, that the plain of form was ready to receive & thus created, at the perfect time for mans continued evolvution /awakening, which significantly highlights the further ongoing development of universal "Consciousness" that has the innate potential to develop awareness beyond enlightenment (an enlightened "MIND") to that of integration of Body, Mind & Spirt or Father, Son & Holy Spirit. A manifestation of "Christ Consciousness" (GOD) fully realized and expressed through the Channell of Physical form! Wow, what a feeling!
"Un-conditonal Love" the nature of all that is!

Evolution seems very much like the growth & development of A little baby, a child, crawsl, toddles, baby steps, walks & runs! So, the journey to "Self" continues.,

The map ones uses or tools, models, practises are but part of the process, with "Intention" Being the underlying force that authentically manifests one's "self created universe" of experience in the moment!
The MOMENT, leading one toward inevitably discovering All of what One
already is & ultimatley owning /realizing THAT!

"Truth" in action on a plain of perceived form., experiencing the many infinite aspects & experiences of the One "SELF"

Many of One & One of Many!

Just some thoughts for the day!
namaste