Here's a line i found on the internet today. "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." (Bertrnd Russell)
Stupid or smart, isnt that wht we all do?
stupid or smart
Yes, whether we are smart or stupid, that’s what we all do, all the time. That explains to me why two different people, listening to the same thing, come away with entirely different understandings, sometimes. That also explains why groups tend to think similarly, without difference, because they have agreed amongst themselves to agree with one another’s interpretations, and thus their conclusions are colored by those agreements.
Even more, that explains why one person can read something such as the words of Jesus, or the words of any great thinker, and come away full of love and high feelings, whereas another comes away with hatred and exclusive self-righteous feelings. It is never about the words themselves, but it is always about the interpreter of those words. In the final analysis, each of us is the interpreter, and thus, have no one to blame or praise for how the world unfolds for us, due to our own interpretations and imposition therefore upon the fluid universe.
Even more, that explains why one person can read something such as the words of Jesus, or the words of any great thinker, and come away full of love and high feelings, whereas another comes away with hatred and exclusive self-righteous feelings. It is never about the words themselves, but it is always about the interpreter of those words. In the final analysis, each of us is the interpreter, and thus, have no one to blame or praise for how the world unfolds for us, due to our own interpretations and imposition therefore upon the fluid universe.
How true that is, Anna, I see every day. I am active on another message board, called "ChristianBoard.com." I am constantly amazed by two things: one is that so many post messages that amount basically to "Here's whom we should hate today" (usually, it's the Pope; sometimes it is Mormons, or the President). The other is that one can post a message, and the responses indicate that the reader got something totally unexpected out of it, as in Monty Python -- "And now, for something totally different." Apparenrtly, five people can read one scripture passage and get five entirely different messages from it.
Lately I've been tangling with some of them (not in a hostile or angry way, BTW) over the issue of what I call the Tribal God. The god Who is really a great big Man Upstairs, operating on human principles, exhibiting human traits such as anger and jealousy. I am so tired of "Let's hate the Pope today," and "Here's a list of who is going to Hell," and "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts." Yet I hang in, because some of them grasp the idea and respond quite intelligently. I am particularly rewarded by discussions with atheist and agnostic visitors to the board; they really help me define my faith.
As you say, it is not Christianity's fault, nor is it the fault of Paul, or The Nicene Council, or anyone else, that Christianity today is in such a mess: it's the people. It's the choice some make to use religion as a platform for their agenda, or a justification for their blood lust (i.e., like the few, very few, who use Islam as an excuse to satisfy their love of murdering people, or the few who use Christianity as an excuse to minimize others.) I suppose it has always been so: otherwise, why would we have had Salem, and the Inquisition, and the Crusades?
I think sometimes that Jesus must be watching all of this, remembering his teachings, and muttering, "Oy veh, they didn't get it."
Namaste
Art
Lately I've been tangling with some of them (not in a hostile or angry way, BTW) over the issue of what I call the Tribal God. The god Who is really a great big Man Upstairs, operating on human principles, exhibiting human traits such as anger and jealousy. I am so tired of "Let's hate the Pope today," and "Here's a list of who is going to Hell," and "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts." Yet I hang in, because some of them grasp the idea and respond quite intelligently. I am particularly rewarded by discussions with atheist and agnostic visitors to the board; they really help me define my faith.
As you say, it is not Christianity's fault, nor is it the fault of Paul, or The Nicene Council, or anyone else, that Christianity today is in such a mess: it's the people. It's the choice some make to use religion as a platform for their agenda, or a justification for their blood lust (i.e., like the few, very few, who use Islam as an excuse to satisfy their love of murdering people, or the few who use Christianity as an excuse to minimize others.) I suppose it has always been so: otherwise, why would we have had Salem, and the Inquisition, and the Crusades?
I think sometimes that Jesus must be watching all of this, remembering his teachings, and muttering, "Oy veh, they didn't get it."
Namaste
Art
"I can at best report only from my own wilderness. The important thing is that each man possess such a wilderness and that he consider what marvels are to be observed there." -- Loren Eiseley
Art wrote,
Thus, you are absolutely right, it is not Christianity’s fault. It is the nature of the human condition. The illusion of separation (“I am me, and you aren’t me”), being an illusion, is a constant source of subconscious discomfort and stress, which we constantly seek to alleviate by defining and aggrandizing our sense of self. Like seeking to increase my own height by cutting off the heads of others, it doesn’t work, but we cannot stop ourselves from doing it. Until, by the Grace of God, we stumble upon a Teacher.
Maybe, but I suspect he is not surprised. Remember, even the twelve, while walking and talking beside him, rarely got it. I suspect that Jesus, like all True Teachers, knows that, sooner or later, nothing prevails like the Truth, and in the meantime, what's the hurry?
As you know – and have written – so well, religion and spirituality are not the same thing, which is why, on TZF, I prefer the expression spiritual tradition to the word religion. Let’s face it, religion tends to be a group activity, and in order to remain strong and to prosper, groups must define their boundaries, their membership standards, their identity. Without that, a group is just a crowd. So, for a group, having enemies, having there be others who are not members of the group (after all, if everyone is in the group, it’s not a group, is it?), is an essential aspect of what being a group is, and what being a member of a group means. Being able to say “I’m in and you’re out” reinforces my sense of me.I am active on another message board, called "ChristianBoard.com." I am constantly amazed by two things: one is that so many post messages that amount basically to "Here's whom we should hate today”.
Not only that, five people can be in the Presence of an acknowledged Teacher, someone whom you'd think we would take extrememly seriously and therefore listen to extremely carefully, and hear the same words from the same Teacher, and get different messages. In the Gospels, the disciples repeatedly misunderstood the Teacher. And various books report the same phenomenon with other Teachers. Nancy and I have been in the company of people and seen it happen. ACIM says, in effect, we see and hear what we believe to be true, or what we want to see and hear. It seems to make little difference what a person says to us; we hear what we want to hear. Ask any police officer: for any incident, whether it is an automobile crash or domestic violence, there are as many “certain” reports as there are witnesses. And when we put into that mix the Divine, then my version is no longer a “version” but the inerrant, revealed word of God. Oh, boy.The other is that one can post a message, and the responses indicate that the reader got something totally unexpected out of it, as in Monty Python -- "And now, for something totally different". Apparently, five people can read one scripture passage and get five entirely different messages from it.
Thus, you are absolutely right, it is not Christianity’s fault. It is the nature of the human condition. The illusion of separation (“I am me, and you aren’t me”), being an illusion, is a constant source of subconscious discomfort and stress, which we constantly seek to alleviate by defining and aggrandizing our sense of self. Like seeking to increase my own height by cutting off the heads of others, it doesn’t work, but we cannot stop ourselves from doing it. Until, by the Grace of God, we stumble upon a Teacher.
I think sometimes that Jesus must be watching all of this, remembering his teachings, and muttering, "Oy veh, they didn't get it".
Maybe, but I suspect he is not surprised. Remember, even the twelve, while walking and talking beside him, rarely got it. I suspect that Jesus, like all True Teachers, knows that, sooner or later, nothing prevails like the Truth, and in the meantime, what's the hurry?
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Ihavesayso
- Posts: 57
- Joined: January 3rd, 2005, 7:54 pm
- Location: Lodi, California, USA
Re: stupid or smart
Stefan wrote, "
Ah Stefan, if I have quoted you correctly, and the quotation is true, then upon whom did the first teacher stumble?
While not all of the threads on, "The Zoo Fence Open Forum," move me to make contributions, I am nearly always amazed by the astuteness and comprehension of those who do. While I don't consider myself's function here to be that of a "fault-finder," inconsistencies are attracted to my mind, as iron filings are to a magnet. At times, though, as Stefan's quote above, they serve to point out by application, the main contention of the thread.Until, by the Grace of God, we stumble upon a Teacher.
Ah Stefan, if I have quoted you correctly, and the quotation is true, then upon whom did the first teacher stumble?
If God is not your ventriloquist, you're just another "dummy!" - ihavesayso
Re: stupid or smart
Dearest friend, you will not catch me with this trick question of yours! I know that you know the answer as well as I!... upon whom did the first Teacher stumble?
Just as everyone of has since the beginning, the first Teacher stumbled upon himself (or herself)!
After all, who else is There?
And yet, precisely as each of us has, he or she undoubtedly mistook it for an other, called it "Teacher" or "Master" or "Lord", bowed before it, learned from it, and finally realized it was none other than "Who I Am"!
What a great Universe this is.