Wonderful discussion. I remember seeing a thought provoking sign that said "Build your life on prayer and faith". I was surprising it made any impression at all amid all the other visual noise and clutter, but there it was, advising a completely contrary response the world of the senses. I never cease to be amazed, how in an instant, just the slightest turn inward, we so very free. Maybe less is dependent on the pray-er, when in awe of Prayer Itself…that, never ceases.
"At that, I immediately wondered ... why classroom discussion did not qualify as prayer."
Let us pray?
prayer
.+*+*+*+*.LOVE.love.lOve.LoVe.*+*+*+**+.. ^^
I see your point: "Thus, the spiritual process is not a choice each of us makes, so much as it is a divinely-inspired evolutionary inevitability." I am not sure about that.
It is not so much, for me, a matter of "I am right, you are wrong," as "from my place on the pathway this is the view I can see, and it is not like the view you are seeing from your place on the pathway." I think I gave up the "I'm right, you're not" thing some time back, after seeing that no one ever profited from such an approach.
So ... From where I stand on the path, I do not see the principle of spiritual progress as inevitable. I suppose, if one accepts the idea of reincarnation, that one could conceive of an ultimate perfection for every soul. I do not believe in reincarnation, and thus question how much inevitable spiritual progress occured in a life such as that of Adolf Hitler or Charles Manson. All of this is speculation, of course. I have no idea at all what God intends to do with Hitler, nor is it my business to know, so I don't bother myself with it except to see him as a counter-indication of the idea that we are all God and will all be perfected in the long run. My own position I arrived at via my own experience, not Hitler's. I found that, when my Lord interrupted my unawareness with His call, He placed a mirror within me and what I saw there was revolting, to say the least, leading me to understand finally why the stress in the Bible from start to finish is on repentance. After all, Jesus' first sermon recorded for us was 5 words: "repent and believe the Gospel." I think that was necesary, because until one has been revolted by one's own self one cannot comprehend the scope of the word "Grace" or really appreciate the desperate measures God undertook to provide mercy. Jesus never offered us a "way" or a "path" except to say, "I am the Way." The path is, as I see it, not a thing we do, or even a thing we are led to do, or to be. The path is Him. It is not a philosophy or a metaphysic, but a Person. I can walk with Him and talk with Him as I cannot do with a metaphysic, and inter-relate with Him as I cannot do with a philosophy. And He definitely saw a separation between God and man, which He came to heal, though that healing would be contingent upon union with Him. Had the potential for perfection been within us, the crucifixion and resurrection would have been unnecessary, and He would have been simply a lunatic for claiming to be the Incarnate Son of God, and a fool for submitting to the horrible death of the Cross. And lunatics may have a page or two in the history books, like Nero, but they do not form the basis for a radical re-structuring of human civilization and experience that continues to grow and produce power. Evidently, He was not nuts, so He must have been Whom He claimed to be.
I do not see the fact that God is infinite as a barrier to the concept of separation, for God is also omnipotent, and should He care to create such a thing as separation it is surely not beyond His power to figure out how to do that. Even David, way back long before Christ, speculated about that, and acknowledged that "if I descend into Hell (Heb. Sheol, an undefined afterlife), Thou art there." Of course He is there. That does not mean that we can enjoy Him or commune with Him there. And that is what I think is meant by "separation." It is not a punishment imposed by God, but one imposed upon us by ourselves. That is a good definition of "death." And we are told that Jesus "came that we might have life -- and have it more abundantly."
Well, that's how I see it from this point in my journey, and a fascinating journey it is. As I age and it nears its end, I don't regret any of it. Excuse me if I end this post with a quote from my own poem, which I used as the final chapter of my latest book.
And so it ends,
the futile striving to evade His love.
And so it ends in silence and in peace.
The Mighty One of Galilee has conquered:
"Be still," He says, "and know that I am God."
Shalom aleichem
Art
It is not so much, for me, a matter of "I am right, you are wrong," as "from my place on the pathway this is the view I can see, and it is not like the view you are seeing from your place on the pathway." I think I gave up the "I'm right, you're not" thing some time back, after seeing that no one ever profited from such an approach.
So ... From where I stand on the path, I do not see the principle of spiritual progress as inevitable. I suppose, if one accepts the idea of reincarnation, that one could conceive of an ultimate perfection for every soul. I do not believe in reincarnation, and thus question how much inevitable spiritual progress occured in a life such as that of Adolf Hitler or Charles Manson. All of this is speculation, of course. I have no idea at all what God intends to do with Hitler, nor is it my business to know, so I don't bother myself with it except to see him as a counter-indication of the idea that we are all God and will all be perfected in the long run. My own position I arrived at via my own experience, not Hitler's. I found that, when my Lord interrupted my unawareness with His call, He placed a mirror within me and what I saw there was revolting, to say the least, leading me to understand finally why the stress in the Bible from start to finish is on repentance. After all, Jesus' first sermon recorded for us was 5 words: "repent and believe the Gospel." I think that was necesary, because until one has been revolted by one's own self one cannot comprehend the scope of the word "Grace" or really appreciate the desperate measures God undertook to provide mercy. Jesus never offered us a "way" or a "path" except to say, "I am the Way." The path is, as I see it, not a thing we do, or even a thing we are led to do, or to be. The path is Him. It is not a philosophy or a metaphysic, but a Person. I can walk with Him and talk with Him as I cannot do with a metaphysic, and inter-relate with Him as I cannot do with a philosophy. And He definitely saw a separation between God and man, which He came to heal, though that healing would be contingent upon union with Him. Had the potential for perfection been within us, the crucifixion and resurrection would have been unnecessary, and He would have been simply a lunatic for claiming to be the Incarnate Son of God, and a fool for submitting to the horrible death of the Cross. And lunatics may have a page or two in the history books, like Nero, but they do not form the basis for a radical re-structuring of human civilization and experience that continues to grow and produce power. Evidently, He was not nuts, so He must have been Whom He claimed to be.
I do not see the fact that God is infinite as a barrier to the concept of separation, for God is also omnipotent, and should He care to create such a thing as separation it is surely not beyond His power to figure out how to do that. Even David, way back long before Christ, speculated about that, and acknowledged that "if I descend into Hell (Heb. Sheol, an undefined afterlife), Thou art there." Of course He is there. That does not mean that we can enjoy Him or commune with Him there. And that is what I think is meant by "separation." It is not a punishment imposed by God, but one imposed upon us by ourselves. That is a good definition of "death." And we are told that Jesus "came that we might have life -- and have it more abundantly."
Well, that's how I see it from this point in my journey, and a fascinating journey it is. As I age and it nears its end, I don't regret any of it. Excuse me if I end this post with a quote from my own poem, which I used as the final chapter of my latest book.
And so it ends,
the futile striving to evade His love.
And so it ends in silence and in peace.
The Mighty One of Galilee has conquered:
"Be still," He says, "and know that I am God."
Shalom aleichem
Art
"I can at best report only from my own wilderness. The important thing is that each man possess such a wilderness and that he consider what marvels are to be observed there." -- Loren Eiseley
Here's my favorite along that line: "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours." -Richard Bach, IllusionsIhavesayso wrote:Essentially, Stefan, what your brilliant dissection of Art’s “duality” concept says to me (in my not so humble opinion) is that “whatever your concept of God may be, so He is, to you!”
This view permits us to “have our cake and eat it too” as the realities we create for ourselves are “true” for us!
And so It is! Outstanding!
.+*+*+*+*.LOVE.love.lOve.LoVe.*+*+*+**+.. ^^
And so it ends
My sense is that we have exhausted this subject. In w4's poetic expression, "and so it ends". Speaking for myself, I agree with those who have remarked that it's been a good discussion.
We started with my question asking whether classroom discussion (or, for that matter, any "life" experience) is prayer. I don't know if we answered the question precisely, or if we all agreed on any answer that may have been proffered; but I can say with confidence that we covered a lot of ground together.
That's relationship, which is always a good thing.
And besides, as Goethe observed, "Dear friend, all theory is grey, And green the golden tree of life".
We started with my question asking whether classroom discussion (or, for that matter, any "life" experience) is prayer. I don't know if we answered the question precisely, or if we all agreed on any answer that may have been proffered; but I can say with confidence that we covered a lot of ground together.
That's relationship, which is always a good thing.
And besides, as Goethe observed, "Dear friend, all theory is grey, And green the golden tree of life".