Nisargadatta Quote Evolving into Kundalini

[anna]

"The real does not die, the unreal never lived. Once you know that death happens to the body and not to you, you just watch your body falling off like a discarded garment. The real you is timeless and beyond birth and death. The body will survive as long as it is needed. It is not important that it should live long"

"To know what you are, find what you are not" In my mind, that says it in a nutshell. You get rid of the conditioning, and all the concepts, and discover what is left is you. But how many of us want to give so much up in order to discover that? We think we are powerful because of all those concepts, but in actuality, we are just perpetuating concepts ad infinitum. But ask someone to give up even one, and watch the objections, the excuses, the reasons not to, and in many cases, the outright anger and outrage. We are such fools!

[zoofence]

(Anna forgot to mention that the book she is guoting from is I Am That, which is a series of conversations and talks with Sri Nisargadatta. Speaking for myself, of all the many books I have read along this wondrous path, all the scriptures, all the lectures, all the memoirs, all the histories, if I were told I was being sent to a desert island, and could take with me only one book, it would be that one.)

[Guest]

I'm with you, Stefan. I Am That is a bible (sacred book) to me. I think that if many of us were shipwrecked alone on an island, the conditioning and concepts might go. Our hearts would be open to "I Am That." Alas, however, if we were rescued, I wonder if we would let the old tapes and conditioning start to roll again as we would have to deal with old relationships, new ones, and overwhelming news and horrors that confont us with the same problems of daily living.

Having said this, I certainly would still keep I Am That by my bedside and have faith that I would hold the One dear to my heart and continuously with me no matter the old tapes and conditioning that creep in. Bhakti

[Bhakti]

I'm sorry that I forgot to log in as I wrote the previous reply to "Nisargadatta quote." I apologize and thank you for your patience with my mistakes. Bhakti

[That I am]

Since Nisargadatta is being quoted, let's enjoy another one of his precious quotes:



There are many persons who have a great attachment to their own individuality. They want first and foremost to remain as an individual and then search, for they are not prepared to lose that individuality. While retaining their identity, they want to find out what is the truth.

But in this process, you must get rid of the identity itself. If you really find out what you are, you will see that you are not an individual, you are not a person, you are not a body. And people who cling to their body identity are not fit for this knowledge.

[mjoel53]

That quote reminds me of what it says in the beginning of ACIM, and although I have long since left that book behind (too many stories), this opening has stayed with me.

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.

Nevermind that I "left that book behind". They remain the three most powerful sentences I have ever come across. Ahhhhh. Kinda like wonderful beautiful grand revelations and slaps across the face at the same time.

For me as an early seeker, they pointed to "who am I, really? ... I mean really really? Because obviously I can be threatened, and obviously I am real. But wait a minute ... that says ... (short circuit - zap) am I who I think I am? Whoah, wait a minute ... How can this be answered ... How can this be understood?"

You know, these way-high guys like Nisargadatta say this kinda stuff and it resonates so deeply, you just know its truth. And your mind just can't wrap around it ... you just can't GET IT !!!

Well. Thank goodness for THAT! Because if the mind could get it, it would turn it into a religion and worship it, and I believe we've gotten ourselves into enough of a fine mess as far as that kinda stuff is concerned, thank you very much.

[anna]

But in this process, you must get rid of the identity itself. If you really find out what you are, you will see that you are not an individual, you are not a person, you are not a body. And people who cling to their body identity are not fit for this knowledge.

A propos to That I am's quote, we had a friend who read Nis's book and just about lost his mind out of fear and anxiety, so this statement by Nisargadatta is not a cirticism, but a warning. You don't consider this point of view until such time as you are willing and able to consider it. Indeed, Ramakrishna uttered the same warning over and over to his disciples, depending upon what inclination that disciple had. A devotee or worshipper of God would be horrified by this concept, for example, not to mention, it would probably break her heart.

That said, this statement is the crux of it, isn't it? (Of course, just about every paragraph of Nis's utterances is the crux of it - that is what is so incredible about this man.)

There is much to be lost by giving up the identity- and of course, no one gives up the identity until that person wishes to. When you do, you give up specialness, separateness, righteousness, glamor, glory, knowlege, purpose, ambition, satisfaction, to name just a few, as well as the flip side of all of that, of course. And to that "special someone" that prizes that uniqueness, that is enough to put a stop to any further investigation. Of course, terror accompanies the initial steps toward even a slight consideration that one might wish to give up one's identity, which makes it doubly difficult, and in many cases, ends any further pursuit. (Certainly in my own life when I initially considered "loss of identity", I took that to mean death -- which of course, it most certainly is -- and fled from it in horror.)

Of course, all of the "benefits" of separate identity are the foundation of all the suffering and misery of life, but we are clever in obscuring that fact when we wish to be deluded. And of course, by all reports of those who have managed to dispense with individual identity, the "benefits" of doing so far outweigh the fear of taking the irrevocable step. Funny how we hedge, even in the face of that reportage, I wonder why? I have a sneaking suspicion that this hedging is programmed into the very cells of an entity, in order to guarantee survival of the species. (Well, hello there!)

[Shh]

Hi Anna,
Your last post seems familiar to me. I had this "thing" last year where I saw or felt myself or what I am like with out any self concern I felt this incredible freedom, but towards the end of the "thing" I said "No I cant be like that, it's not safe." A couple of months after that I started having panic attacks I thought that I was most likely going insane. I sort of think that I hold great self control over myself because I was so afraid of that giving up of my self, hence the panic attack where I did loose control. I havent had any "panic" for about three months and I still strongly feel that "give it up" let go sensation and I think for me it is very much the giving up of identity which I sort of think of as pretense. The thing is, from what I saw and felt in that "thing" that way of being is incredibly spontaneous and invoulantary you just are as you are, so my problem with it all is what if I am unaware of an aspect of the darker side of myself that shows itself, I guess that would be pretense again, I dont know.
Shh

[windabove]

Ah, such a powerful quote. It really runs the 'money-changers' out! No room for negotiations in the 'temple' with this approach.

There are many persons who have a great attachment to their own individuality. They want first and foremost to REMAIN as an individual and THEN search, for they are not prepared to lose that individuality. While RETAINING their identity, they want to find out what is the truth.

It can be your favorite esoteric new age teaching or a traditional orthodox teaching, doesn't matter, the common insistence (premise) is always the same, that the Universe is finite (material) and Life is personal (human). Life is then presumably redefined, exclusively, by personal interpretation (experience) itself, and the dream has started to dream its own dreamer!

[zoofence]

Here's a line from Emo Phillips that somehow seems apropos to this thread:

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.

There's more of this funny fellow's wisdom by wit at http://cmgm.stanford.edu/~lkozar/EmoPhillips.html

[anna]

This forum ought to have sub-categories - you know, where you pick the person you are responding to, and the response follows a sub-paragraph beneath it.....!

Well, anyway, this is to respond to Shh's report of panic attacks after experiencing a "loss of self-identity". Were you taking marijuana, or some of other kind mind altering drug? Just asking, because this is a common reaction to those kinds of drugs, both before and after ingestion - one of the numerous reasons in my mind at least, not to mess with the stuff. It tends to create an artificial situation, sometimes too heavy to tolerate by an inexperienced mind or one that does not understand the ramifications of experiencing an altered state.

Whatever the cause, the reaction was an understandable reaction. Indeed, many LSD users in the 60's complained of similar recurrent panic attacks after taking LSD and finding themselves in an unobstructed universe. The problem, then, is the "coming back" to "normal consciousness" that causes the panic attack. The attacks, it seems to me, are a kind of safety device that the separate identity has built in to protect itself from dissolution. Let's not forget that the point of life, from the material "species" point of view, is to re-create itself and continue its existence. Anything that interferes with that program is "dangerous" to its survival; thus it has all sorts of mechanisms that come into play if that program is threatened, and most certainly, if one realizes that one is not separate, but in fact is every body and every thing combined, there will be little reason for pro-creation, or survival of the species.

My recommendation would be to cease messing around with loss of individuality so that you can adapt to your newly discovered expanded consciousness, and in time, you will be more able to tolerate further expansion. Kind of like a balloon that has expanded for the first time you blow it up, it needs time to adjust to its stretched size. (Time is useful, sometimes. ) In the meantime, it doesn't hurt to lean on God to hold your hand through the process. There is no conflict between a personal God and the loss of individuality to the sense of universality or holiness- the two don't cancel one another out, they are just different aspects of the same thing, or perhaps better, different manifestations of the universe. Both are right, and both are lovely.

[Bhakti]

I can relate to Shh having panic attacks because I get palpitations and other symptoms that I feel to exist because of what Anna calls “normal consciousness.” As Anna has said:

The problem, then, is the "coming back" to "normal consciousness" that causes the panic attack. The attacks, it seems to me, are a kind of safety device that the separate identity has built in to protect itself from dissolution. Let's not forget that the point of life, from the material "species" point of view, is to re-create itself and continue its existence. Anything that interferes with that program is "dangerous" to its survival; thus it has all sorts of mechanisms that come into play if that program is threatened, and most certainly, if one realizes that one is not separate, but in fact is every body and every thing combined, there will be little reason for pro-creation, or survival of the species.

I think that the spirit of who I Am interferes with and threatens the survival of the material species; hence, the body and mind provoke anxiety and related panic attacks, palpitations, and stress. I recently read a quote that sums it up for me: “Reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it.”

I don’t know if the creator of this quote was referring to what I call spirituality or I Am That, but this is how I read the quote. Being in touch with the Self, letting go, losing control of, or whatever you choose to call being Real, or That, is terribly fearful to the body-mind’s ego.

This is what I say to the body-mind ego: “Die if you will, but you can’t hurt me and I’m OK.” And than I ask the Universe (God, higher Self, That) to help me through whatever I need to experience from these symptoms and fear. I say this each day. Saying this and truly believing in what I say help me to live and work through the palpitations and fear without increasing my anxiety. I also do yoga, exercise, and take medication to help alleviate these symptoms because, as a human being, I need to care for my physical status in addition to my spirit. As Swami Vivekanda has said, it’s difficult and near impossible to care for the spirit if the body is starving or chronically dis-eased. Namaste, Bhakti

[nothingness]

I am that is a great book, Nisargadatta is a great teacher but it is all and I mean really all, literally nonsense. Why, you may ask ? Well, because it presumes that there is a person (I AM THAT) and the simple truth is, there isn't one. There is just life. All else is entertainment, conciousness playing with words and itself. So far "my" contribution....

[Bhakti]

You're right, nothingness, what you have said is your contribution because humans express themselves (consciousness) through words and sensory organs. I also believe that I Am That is not a person but encompasses conscious persons playing with literary nonsense. As consciousness, I like literature and words, and I like to use words to express unexpressible life. So in the words of William Blake:

If the doors of perception were cleansed,
Everything would appear . . . as it is, infinite.

[anna]

Nothingness makes a good point, seems to me.

In the final analysis, when you get right down to it, everything anyone says, or does, or thinks, or dreams, is essentially nonsense, because it has virtually no significance except to the subject that does it, and that subject's world.

That said, of course, "Life", which is all there is, is "living" and within that "living" is "us" who live it. Without "us" there would be no experiencer, would there? So, in the end, with all our nonsense and insignificant self-importance, we do serve a purpose, and that is to experience life, don't you think?

Perhaps then, the problems and sufferings, and difficulties we all "experience" in living our lives, evolve out of going any further with this string of thought, than the above assumption, no?